Illyria's a Dude, and Other Thoughts.

[fenderlove]

Am I alone in believing that Illyria is not inherently female? Like, am I seriously the only one who believes that the pronoun "she" in reference to Illyria is due to the God-King inhabiting a female body, and that if Illyria had jumped into Knox's body or another male, that Illyria would be referred to as "he?" The Old Ones were presented on the show as beings that just existed, that were born out of the Primordium, that did not need to procreate, so I always assumed that Illyria was intersexed or genderless. I don't remember Knox referring to Illyria as female or male prior to it entering Fred's body.

Also, does Illyria have organs? It's obvious that he/she/it bleeds, but did it manufacture its own organs because it liquified all of Fred's. If someone tried to sess with that and it didn't have internals necessary for the act, it'd been like making love to a box of packing peanuts or crispy chicken or something equally unpleasant. I mean, I know Willingham thought he was being all edgy by making Illyria want to com-shuck with Connor for whatever reason, but did Illyria want Connor because he's the most powerful mortal being? If there had been a more powerful female or if Connor was female, would Illyria have still tried to tap that? IDW seems perfectly willing to accept Illyria as a purely female demon (I guess the original show writers were too- Leave it to a female deity to nearly destroy all of time and space because she's got massive PMS cramps), but I'm not buying it just as I don't buy Olvikan being male purely because the Mayor chose it for his Ascension ritual. Even though Glory was outwardly female, she was always referred to as a god not a goddess on the show. Hecate and Thespia, however, are referred to as goddesses.

Comments

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I definitely had the impression that Illyria was either intersexed or male and is now in a female body (though I think the bigger transition was from Old One to Humanoid as I agree that as Old One gender had an entirely different meaning).

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

It's nice to know that I'm not entirely crazy. After reading some of the comments on the IDW board, I thought I was totally alone. Then again, I'm not interested in Illyria because "she's hot" to directly quote some of the posters be they joking or not. XD

[(Anonymous)]

I don't really see Illyria as having a gender. She/He is above that. Transcends sex. I haven't read these comics in question but the text of the show never implied that Illyria was female in fact calling it a God-King implies masculine attributes.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I think I see her like Lovecaraft's old ones, who would not have a gender any human could describe without going mad :).

It's why I find it especially ridiculous how Illyria is oversexed these days.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

I can definitely see Illyria fitting in with the Lovecraft's set. :D

Illyria is definitely being oversexed, and I think it's because Willingham had very few characters to work with for his "sexy" angles. I mean, he has Kate and Illyria, too primarily not-bimbolicious characters that were systematically turned into nymphettes over the course of two arcs- first with Kelley Armstrong's "sexy" new skintight costume for Kate (which led to the infamous cover where her camel toe and back entrance were spotlighted) and with his own need to make Illyria go into heat like an animal. He also had Kelley Armstrong's Dez who spent a lot of time naked. There's also his own Laura Weathermill who is presented as a sort of "frost queen" who is wound so tight that any moment she's just going to explode from sexual frustration and tear off her own clothes. Plus, there's the female Big Bad who doesn't like to wear clothes and exposes her backside. You know, leather-clad Gwen is still sulking around; why not just have her standing around instead of making poor Kate uncomfortable. Oh, that's right because women are betrayers and will always use any opportunity to hurt men.

I'm also tired of Connor constantly being used as a sexual or pseudo-sexual pawn, but that's a whole other rant. XD

[mulder200.livejournal.com]

Maybe it was just me but I thought "she" was "he" because didn't He refer to itself as male? I meant it kept calling itself GodKing.

At least, that's how I understood it.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

See, that was always my standpoint! I did start to think that maybe saying God-King was just a title that had nothing to do gender and that maybe these Old Ones were just genderless or gender neutral (a lot of older texts on demonology refer to the hierarchy of demons in what we would consider strictly male titles- prince, duke, king, marquis, etc), and there's other characters like Glory who refers to herself as a god not a goddess and that her current female form was not always how she had appeared in her own hell dimension. And then I got on IDW's forum where there's apparently a consensus that Illyria is completely female and has always been and will be forever be female, which I just don't understand.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

Nope. God King was there for a reason.

It was one of the points I explored in my big Illyria essay years ago.

Though now I'd probably go for the end result as being gender queer.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

I just wrote on the IDW forum that Illyria could visit a transgender support group, not because she/he/it has a gender, but because transgendered people might be able to help her cope with feeling trapped within a foreign body and how society makes certain assumptions about that body rather than trying to find out who you are.

I'm off to read your essay! Whee! :D

[deird1]

I think she's now female - because I tend to think of Illyria as we see her on the show as being a fusion of Fred (female) and Illyria (genderless).

The Illyria we know is female, but not sure what that means yet.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

I'd like to see Illyria being explored in a manner where he/she/it confronts what it means to have societal expectations of gender thrust upon her/him/it because I just don't see how being in a female body would suddenly make a difference in how Illyria would behave and react, even with some of Fred's memories.

[quinara]

(Popping in from Petzi.)

I think Illyria as an entity is gender-free (God King may be masculine, but in English masculine also equals gender-neutral, even now - see actor vs. actress, comedian vs. comedienne, entrepreneur vs. entrepreneuse and all the other French loan words we don't bother to use the feminine for), but I agree with deird1 that 'she' has a touch of Fred about her after the takeover, edging her towards the feminine, and I tend to think that over time she assumes the female gender. I probably think that because the writers were lazy and did pretty much write her as female, but she does appear that way to me.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

The hierarchy of demons in some texts lists only the masculine titles (prince, king, duke, marquis), but it probably had little to do with gender and was merely a title. I really can't wrap my head around how being in a female body making someone who had a previous life and previous experiences as possibly another gender suddenly be female, like I'm imagining if I were somehow transported to a male body, and I'd still be me, have my mannerisms, my memories. The outside world might treat me differently, but I doubt I would suddenly become more masculine because of it. Illyria's posture and carriage and her, for lack of anything better, manner of speaking never screamed feminine to me, only alien and disjointed, which would be interesting to explore if only the writers had the courage to do so. I'm suddenly having hilarious mental images of Spike trying to make Illyria into a "proper lady." Oh, Spike, you are no Henry Higgins. XD

Maybe I'm just upset because after reading comments elsewhere that it seems that some readers only want Illyria to be female so that she can have breasts and possibly have a lesbian experience, which makes me very, very sad. *head-desk*

[quinara]

I suppose I imagine the Old Ones' society as being in the very least gender-inconsequential, so it's less a denial of her own experience, more that her arrival in our (very gendered) world leaves her with three choices: to accept she is female in line with people's assumptions, to argue she is male, or to argue that she is gender-free. I see her as finding it of little consequence, so accepting being called 'she' and not altering her appearance (which through the long 'dyed' hair, sharp features her colouring emphasises, and skin-tight clothing does, to me at least, keep her coded as 'feminine').

But then, for me, feminine != sexualised, so the idea of bimbo-ifying her pretty much horrifies me.

[next_to_normal]

I see her as finding it of little consequence, so accepting being called 'she' and not altering her appearance

Same here. Although, while Illyria doesn't seem to care that everyone addresses her as female, if you asked her, I doubt she'd call herself female. We as humans are hyperaware of gender and draw lots of conclusions from it, but to Illyria those conclusions are likely meaningless. We (the audience and the other characters) are trying to label Illyria in ways that probably don't even make sense to an Old One, but Illyria doesn't care what we think anyway. :)

[quinara]

Yeah, I think Illyria's self-identity runs to 'god' and 'ruler' and 'old', bypassing gender almost entirely - whether this means at some point she'll add 'agendered' to that identity or not I don't know, but I think for the series at least being called 'she' doesn't even register.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

I made the suggestion at IDW that perhaps if they are going to confront Illyria with how females procreate heterosexually and label her as "wommin folk" who needs to hang out with other females strictly because she is female, then maybe she needs to go to a support group for transgendered people. They might be able to understand her feeling of being trapped in an body that doesn't feel like their own and having to deal with societal expectations not based on who you are but what your body tells other people you are. Plus, Illyria probably cares very little about gender superiority so she'd be a great character to use to confront gender stereotyping! :D

[quinara]

Sounds good. Though I have a feeling transgendered people don't like being described as 'trapped' in their bodies, as a group, because that isn't quite what it is... If they could do it without failing, though, I'd love to see the Angelverse get some trans characters.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

I can't speak for transgendered people as a group, but I have a friend who identifies himself as transgendered who often says he feels trapped, though he could be referring to his situation in general and not just how he feels about his body.

If they could do it without failing, though, I'd love to see the Angelverse get some trans characters.
Me too, but I think there's a high probable fail factor with the writers.

[quinara]

I can't speak for them either, but I've heard a number of people (on the internet, to be fair) talking about how they really hate that construction, so I tend to be wary of it even though I'm definitely not an authority. :)

And yeah on the likelihood of fail. :(

[deird1]

I really can't wrap my head around how being in a female body making someone who had a previous life and previous experiences as possibly another gender suddenly be female

Well, again - I think of Illyria (on the show) as being both Fred and Illyria. Not just Illyria in Fred's body - but Fred and Illyria in Fred's body.

So it's someone who has been previously genderless combined with someone who has always been female. Thereby defaulting to female, because as far as Illyria has gender, 50% female mind in a female body is going to end up being mostly female.

[next_to_normal]

I've always assumed that Illyria, as an Old One, was genderless, and it's simply the host body that is female. If Illyria had taken over a male's body instead of Fred's, we'd all be saying "he." I don't expect Willingham to grasp nuance, though (especially not when it comes to gender), so of course Illyria becomes purely a female demon.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

Here's some hilarity for you:
1. All the male posters at the IDW forum complain that the female posters are wrong in asserting that the comics are meant for male readers and are geared with fanservice and female nudity towards them.
2. Two seconds later, when asked about what they like most about Illyria and what they find most interesting about her, some of the males only reply "She's hot" and "yeah, she's really hot."
3. The only thing people seem to be interested in is how Illyria interacts with "other women," revealing that they only view her as female and nothing else... And also other comments imply that they want her to have a lesbian tryst.
4. No one wonders why the "comic fanboy" stereotype still exists.

Oh, my brain hurts.

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

However however important it may seem to we sexual creatures, gender is not a fundamental property of matter or ideas. Gender is not more basic to animal identify than species, for example.

I identify absolutely as a male. But if I were to ascend to pure genderless demonhood I'd probably put the maleness aside while I ravaged the countryside and made all humans my slaves or my dinner. Then if I found myself isolated in a prison drilled through the center of the Earth for millions of years and released into a female human body imbued with my demon essence, I expect I'd make the transition to female self identification reasonably smoothly. More smoothly than the rest of that, anyway.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

If you were trapped some place with nothing to do except ponder your own thoughts, it seems like it would only reenforce whatever previous identity you have. However, if gender is absolutely meaningless to you in the first place and if all that matters is getting out of said prison drilled through the center of the Earth, then, yes, it probably would be a smoother transition. All things are unimportant when compared to the awesome ravaging power of Trogdor the Burninator! THATCHED-ROOFED COTTAGES!