Thinky Thoughts...

[fenderlove]

After reading angearia's post with both the Whedon and Petrie versions of Beneath You, I had some thoughts. You ever have one of those days where you wish that you could have seen how James Marsters would have played Doug Petrie's version of Beneath You? I've had a bunch of those days over the last decade. I bet he would have played the hell out of it. It would have been epic.



I've tried not to keep up with which writers didn't like Spike, which writers love Spike, which writers hate Spike fans, which writers are Spike fans, etc. over the years. I just know which episodes I like and which ones I thought could have been much better. Beneath You was always the great S7 tragic misstep to me (among many, many missteps). You take the final scene of an episode that really should have been about Spike's pain, what he's going through, and you turn it into all. about. Buffy. She's gonna cry about it? Fuck off, Whedon. She's not the one getting deep-fried while going through mental torment that I can't even describe. I wanted her to react, to do something, but all she did was stand there. What? After all those months of "You don't know how to love! You don't have a soul! Wah wah wah!" she didn't have anything to say for herself? I have a few words to say about her... in a few languages actually. It looks like she's crying because she's feels sorry for herself being in this situation, not what her harsh, uncaring words have forced another person to do.

Personally, I would love to have seen how James would have played Petrie's original. There are plenty of various BtVS writers whose work has no real connection for me on the page, but the actors really nail it- a glance that wasn't written, the tears in the corners of the eyes, the raw emotion in the voice. A good example would be Emma Caulfield's scene in The Body- it's all about the performance. I think that Petrie's BY ending could have come across quite emotionally relevant and poignant. I don't think it "reads" any better than Whedon's on paper, but it's all about what the screen shows for me, and I can imagine James knocking Petrie's out of the park (and that's not because he plays pain better than anyone else... okay, that's partially true). I felt that Whedon's BY fell incredibly flat in that Buffy comes off as coldhearted, and personally I'd like to see Spike get angry, work through his grief instead of the near-silent non-acceptance acceptance. Whedon's was an excuse to call Spike a whore and get his shirt off. Spike is catatonically complacent, weak, and too accepting. I want him to rage! Rage against the slings and arrows of his situation! How dare Buffy make such a big deal about having soul when it apparently doesn't matter a good goddamn! It's not an automatic get-out-of-jail-free card like Angel gets after all! And then Spike would calm and have a deep breath. He's angry and he's hurt, but he's not made of porcelain anymore because of his mental state. Spike is not a broken doll for Christ's sake. In Whedon's scene, I just wanted Buffy to run up to the cross and yank Spike off of it...

"Enough," Buffy would say, in a calm yet resolute way. "That's... enough." A part of her is angry that Spike would hurt himself, but there is something else. All of the fear of approaching him that she had built up in her mind is gone. Is she worried for him? She's not totally sure, but she knows that she needs to stop him from damaging himself further so she could think for a second.

The burns to Spike's cheek and torso would be evident, and the moment her hands were on him he'd have a look in his eyes that could only be described as a combination of both the cornered rabbit and the fox that was coming through the hutch. The kid is obviously not all right, to use an Offspringian phrase.

"I think..." Spike pauses to stop his voice from shaking. After gritting through the tick in his cheek, he exhales and speaks in a more assured, serious tone, "I think I need some help, but I'm not sure if I want it from you."

"Okay," Buffy replies with a nod. What is she going to do with him? The long-term answer to that question is for later. The first thing she needs to do is get him to some aloe and start child-proofing all the cabinets and electrical outlets until she's absolutely sure this sudden appearance of sanity sticks.

... And that would have saved a lot of pointless Spike-in-the-basement-ness and being trapped in Xander's closet. This could have really got the ball rolling early in the season, but nooooooooo, can't have anything like that! We have to draw out Spike's torture! I like my Spike to fight, to not give up. For the rest of S7, we get weepy, eerily quiet Spike, accepting the pittance others dole out when they give a damn when apparently all it takes is Buffy calling him a crybaby and him getting his stupid coat back to make him snap out of it. The hell? I'll admit I like Woobie Spike, but Spike isn't really a woobie and he's not really nice. He's a good guy, but he's not nice. He can be, don't get me wrong, especially to those he loves and cares for, but he's an arsehole as a defense mechanism to protect himself, or rather the William part of himself. The idea that Spike is good, kind, and loving while being a jerk with a streak for lashing out abusively to hide his own hurt feelings and insecurities (his treatment of Harmony is abhorrent. I don't care if she was evil and stupid; there's no excuse for his behavior) are not mutually exclusive. However, I don't believe Spike could ever go back to being as he was in his human life. He's too jaded to ever be that sweet and vulnerable again. Actually, as much as I adore fluffy William, I'd be terrified if Spike ever was like that again. It's not like Liam who could handle himself. William is totally innocent, and Spike's in a position where he can't let his guard down like that. Brian Lynch's view of Spike exemplifies this. Lynch shows Spike's deepest desire, his mental happy place. It's not Spike in the middle of a harem in silk pjs, however. What is it you ask? Spike's mental happy place is being married/in a relationship with Fred, who loves and respects him, and going shopping with her for household items. He's wearing a red polo shirt and khaki pants... which is very William-like, in my opinion. He imagines Fred wearing a knee-length pink dress, much like what he had the BuffyBot dressed in. When he finds out that Fred is gone for good, Spike can't even stand to look at Illyria for fear of opening himself up to the pain of admitting that his little fantasy is never going to happen, that he was fooling himself all along. Spike may be Love's Bitch, but he's still got a spine... even if that spine is cracked and filled with fissures and gives him lower lumbar problems.

I'm sure that made very little sense, but it's all I got! I'm going to stop going back and rewatching episodes because it just makes me more and more pissed off by remembering how pissed off I was in the first place. XD

Comments

[lilithbint.livejournal.com]

I can see where Spike defines himself by the people around him, which ironically is the one thing William never did. William was a milksop and a mamas boy, and he wore his vulnerability and naivety like armour, but he pursued his passion for poetry and Cecily even though he knew they wouldn't get far.

After finally seeing William I saw the veneer of Spike as being William without the fear of public humiliation. He kept the passion and the really bad ideas (like falling in love with Buffy) and just carried on with the sheer glee of being practically invincible at least physically.

I've always had trouble watching BtVS because I had no interest or sympathy for Buffy and her support team weren't interesting enough to me until Spike. Spike's sheer enjoyment of what he did whether it was fighting, killing or loving was so much more entertaining than whinging 'it's not our fault' behaviour.
Some of Spike's best moments for me were with the women he loved (and Angel but for different reasons). I quite liked Petrie's version of the Church scene because for whatever reason he had for not being comfortable seeing Spike as a hero in the Initiative at least his Spike was demanding Buffy fix the mess she started. Because the show was about Buffy every scene was going to be about her and her feelings I can see why it was rewritten to make Buffy more active rather than passive, but I agree with you we missed out on a chance to see James really knock it out of the park.

Everything Spike did was for her, (and for himself because he is selfish, after all he had a long time to learn to be and very good teachers in Dru and Angel). He tried to tempt her to embrace her darkness and when she did he let her explore it, when she changed the rules and he went too far he went to get the one thing he thought would make the difference. He may not have known when he first left but like all wishes granted you have to be really careful what you say and as soon as Spike made it about Buffy he got a soul for his trouble. So I can see where he was waiting for her to actually tell him what she wanted him to be so he could rewrite the persona to fit. Buffy didn't want any part of William she only wanted the veneer of Spike so he gave it to her and then let himself be burned to a crisp to shed it once and for all.
I wish the ending of Season 7 had just been them escaping and standing next to the crater that was Sunnydale so we could pretend they weren't just a bunch of self-centered jerks who only wanted to go shopping rather than stop to mourn the fallen.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

Everything Spike did was for her, (and for himself because he is selfish,

I am forever reminded of Tara's quote from Crush as a very apt description of Spike's history and his continuing pursuit of love- "No, see, it can't, it can't end like that, 'cause all of Quasimodo's actions were selfishly motivated. He had no moral compass, no understanding of right, everything he did he did out of love for a woman who'd never be able to love him back. Also, you can tell it's not gonna have a happy ending when the main guy's all bumpy."

So I can see where he was waiting for her to actually tell him what she wanted him to be so he could rewrite the persona to fit. Buffy didn't want any part of William she only wanted the veneer of Spike so he gave it to her and then let himself be burned to a crisp to shed it once and for all.

I would love to have to have seen the scene more in that way. I'm going to keep your interpretation in mind as it makes me feel better. The whole thing with the "I dreamed of killing you" and Buffy grabbing the stake while sniffling just didn't do it for me. I think I like the language more in Petrie's. I know that when the script was first leaked a lot of people didn't like the "I'm God's garbage" line, but I think that deep down a lot of people could identify with that sentiment.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Still glad it didn't happen, personally. And Marsters can act his way out of a paper bag, but seems to me he prefers it when he gets to work with Whedon's work. Coming from what he said recently about Whedon being the best writer on the show and that he regretted not having as many Whedon lines to perform.

The problem with Petrie's version wasn't just that Buffy had no reaction or emotional feelings on the matter (and it doesn't have to be all about Buffy, but when she's witnessing Spike's breakdown, some ANY reaction, kthnx), but that Petrie was having Spike tell everyone he was in pain, rather than showing it. Petrie's version is all about Spike talking where as Whedon's has him revealing his pain, his conflict, without outright saying "I'm in pain and question my place in the world. Woe! Look how I'm able to coherently express my issues like I've been seeing a therapist for years then slip into rambling nonsense crazy talk."

As someone lavastar noted, Petrie thinks showing Spike is crazy means sending him off into stream-of-cosnciousness word-association land.

Style of writing is so much about personal taste. But the problem more as I see it isn't that Joss' was preferable, but that Petrie's was weak writing. Too much tell, not enough emotion. And what Spike-emotion is there... well, it reads more like anger than a breakdown. Like even in confessing he's got a soul, he's still gotta have edge and be evil, dammit, because this guy is the villain.

Petrie's version made it All About Buffy while Joss' made it about Buffy and then about a higher power and about how "everybody will forgive and love". Petrie ending on the note "how do ya like me now?" makes it even more All About Buffy, while Joss ending on the cross in that progression makes it about starting with Buffy but growing to mean more than just her.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

Coming from what he said recently about Whedon being the best writer on the show and that he regretted not having as many Whedon lines to perform.

Yet James doesn't regret working with Joss because he got time off as well as didn't have to deal with Joss's constant whinging about "pretty people having it easy." What a fascinating workplace that must have been. XD

The problem with Petrie's version wasn't just that Buffy had no reaction or emotional feelings on the matter (and it doesn't have to be all about Buffy, but when she's witnessing Spike's breakdown, some ANY reaction, kthnx), but that Petrie was having Spike tell everyone he was in pain, rather than showing it.

And that's where I'd have to see it filmed to agree with you. I think that how it would be shot makes or breaks it, and I really wasn't impressed with the scene as it appeared on TV. It was over-emphasis on Buffy's non-reaction/sniveling that made her seem extremely cold. I think you could actually edit her out and have a better scene.

Petrie's version made it All About Buffy while Joss' made it about Buffy and then about a higher power and about how "everybody will forgive and love". Petrie ending on the note "how do ya like me now?" makes it even more All About Buffy, while Joss ending on the cross in that progression makes it about starting with Buffy but growing to mean more than just her.

The forgive and love thing was just pointless word salad to me and seemed rather put on because of the church setting because no one really forgave and loved in the end. It was just a way to keep fans complacent and hopeful just as the "one day she'll tell you" later on. It all winds up being just as meaningless as the ramblings of a mad man because nothing comes of any of it. Reading Petrie's scene was more about Spike truly owning his soul even though he originally got it for someone else's benefit, finally getting to say everything that's in his head even if it isn't quite coherent, the things no one would care about but him. It comes off like his speech in Lover's Walk where no one wants to listen but it's the one chance he has when everyone else is too uncomfortable to talk. To me, saying "how do ya like me now?" is more saying to Buffy that she helped create the situation and now Spike's bearing the brunt of it. Then again, I have to go on how it would play out on the screen as I see it in my mind. The world will never know which would have been the more apropos scene without seeing both filmed.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Okay, the "how do ya like me now?" line? There's a snarky Tobey Keith song of the same name, about how the reckless boy who never was given the time of day from the pretty girl in high school is now a rock star while she's a miserable housewife. It even has the "neener, neener, neener!" theme trailing through the bridge, and that's the first thing I think of when I read a line of Petrie's that would have had so much emotional impact.Why yes, I listen to country music. My people are rednecks, dammit, and we're proud!

While I agree that Marsters could knock anything out of the park, I gotta admit I agree with angearia on this one, that Whedon's script is better, mostly because like her, I'm a literary analysis dork and I adore her academic wanking of the scene. I think there's more clarity of emotion in the actual words Whedon chose for Spike to speak, rather than incoherent rambling and rhymes (which are far too Drusilla-like and confusing from a characterization standpoint - is Spike now crazy in the same way Dru was crazy? no, so it's problematic), as in the Petrie version. I do like Buffy's active listening in the Whedon scene, and while I do see how you can find it cold, I also see a lot of confusion and guilt at what she wrought in SMG's emoting in Whedon's scene. That isn't to say that she couldn't have done the same without stage directions with Petrie's scene, but I do like what we were given, even if I wish we could have seen some of the cut versions of Petrie's script they filmed.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

I always read the "how do ya like me now" as very, very angry, and I hope he would be. I too love literary analysis, but I just interpret both scenes differently. I don't see Whedon's as particularly any more emotive or deep, but I do believe there's a little bit of the fact we do get the benefit of being able to already hear James say them. It was the second episode of the season, so what level of crazy Spike was hadn't been established. He talks to rats and dead people, cries about events that happened during his boyhood, thinks that his mother's spirit can control earthquakes, and so I don't think that having him speak as Petrie had him originally written is that far off. To me, Buffy has no empathy for anyone until it involves her own suffering. By making her feel guilt, her feelings immediately turn to how it affects her. Her only action in this scene as Whedon wrote it were violent and yet in-active. She doesn't try to address Spike's obvious confusion. This is a young woman who saw the ravages of delusions on her own mother... Oh, wait, that's right. Buffy hid in the kitchen, crying with the radio on so she didn't have to listen to her mother's suffering. I'm starting to see a pattern with her.

[enisy.livejournal.com]

James did get to play and film Doug Petrie's version, but both he and Joss thought it didn't come out well at all. Which is why Joss rewrote it and stepped in on another date to direct it.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

Yes, I am aware, but no fan has ever seen it so how is one to judge? I'm sorry, but I think what Joss wrote tried to put Buffy in a better light and it didn't work. Maybe if she had moved to help Spike or reacted in any way that wasn't ineffectual. The whole scene wound up being pointless to me because nothing happens. Buffy finds out Spike has a soul and thematically that's all that happens. Buffy doesn't understand why he's hurting, doesn't really listen to him, and Spike turns into a weepy masochist mess, and it appears that Buffy just left him there to burn up if he wanted to. I'd just like to see how the other one played out on screen to see if it really was so bad compared to what we got.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I have a few words to say about her... in a few languages actually. It looks like she's crying because she's feels sorry for herself being in this situation, not what her harsh, uncaring words have forced another person to do.


It shows how all of us see things different, doesn't it? We all inform the scenes with different subtext. I always took Buffy's tears at that moment as "OMG, what Spike has done? [Angel never did that.]" "Angel never did that [for me] because it's impossible. This can't be done. How can Spike have done that [when Angel never did]?" And that's paralyzing her into basically not reacting at all. Because she's in that moment of Spike shouldn't have done this. He shouldn't have. Because if he did this, it blows so many of her basic world parameters away and she doesn't want them blown. Which is also why I think after the fade-out (again my own subjective interpretation) she ran away. And it's why she waited several weeks to do anything about any of it. She couldn't do anything until she had distance from it because if she really, really thought about it... she'd have to reach many conclusions that she isn't willing to ever change. So she does what Buffy does... avoids.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I thought the reason it was re-written was because SMG complained about Buffy's lack of...well... almost anything in the original scene.

I thought JM mentioned being so wrung-out from the first one that he really didn't want to do a different one, but that ultimately that emotional exhaustion that made him not want to do it probably helped the second version of the scene.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

So she does what Buffy does... avoids.

And that's why the scene doesn't work for me at all. Buffy is the hero, and yes, she's flawed, but someone who she, whether she wants to admit it or not or thinks better of it, cares about is hurting himself in front of her, and she does absolutely nothing about it. The camera direction, SMG's constant nauseous expression, and poor lighting in the scene just make it that much worse. Spike is calling out to her, asking her if everything is okay. A touch of a hand, a "Come down from there and let's... well, I don't know what to do with you, but first aid comes first... which is why it's called first aid I guess" from rambling freaked out Buffy, anything but Buffy being ineffectual. The only actions she does in this whole scene are violent ones, which speaks volumes about how Joss views Buffy and possibly even more about Buffy's lack of emotional connection to anything or anyone. Hell, even Xander might have tried to stop Spike from hurting himself, but not Buffy. She just stands there, and the more I think about it the more I want to toss out or burn my BtVS DVDs because, as angry as I was the first go around, Buffy is even less than what I thought she was. She learns nothing, doesn't grow as a character, and has very little empathy but expects mounds of sympathy from everyone else but doesn't want the prying and possible admonishments that might come from people who care (even if it really is none of their business), and she refuses to do things to better her situation in the most hideously masochistic way possible. Johnny Rotten was right- heroes are all useless.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

Which makes me want to see the first one more. Something that exhausted the James? Yes, please. :D

Comments from the actors, writers, directors, who-have-you do complicate things, don't they? Seems like there's always a quote from someone to support every opinion, positive or negative. The curse of 21st century living. XD

[enisy.livejournal.com]

I've heard of that rumor, but never found any quote that supports it.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

From JamesDB.com and the James Marsters Press Archive, quotes about James liking the original version, but mentioning why it didn't work for the screen:

(4-03 Cleveland Convention) I was playing a man who was riddled by the guilt of all these murders and all of these things. So I had to dredge up everything that I had core guilt about in my life and just beat myself up with it. And when you do that to yourself… I mean no therapist is gonna tell you that is a good idea, you know. And that’s why acting is not necessarily that healthy all the time. And so you know, I got all my rocket fuel together and we filmed the scene, dailies came back, Joss didn’t like the lighting, he thought some of the writing needed to be switched around a little bit. And so he re wrote it and came in an directed it again. By that time I was spent, you known I had already filmed it and I just kind of came to the set, (walks across stage head hung) like how am I gonna rake myself again? But it always happens that you just get carried by the words and you just get carried there. You know, there are 3, 4, 5, 6 scenes through out this season that really were very hard. That were not comfortable, that were not necessarily fun, but that I am very proud of. Yeah, thanks."

(6-03 Buffy Magazine) "In the first [version]," James explains, "it was a lot more of Spike talking about what his experience was, which works really well on the stage. Both Doug and I come from the stage, and we were actually excited it was becoming theatrical. This is all hindsight, but I think [a soliloquy] is dramatic onstage because it's amazing for a person to stand in front of a group of people and be honest and open. But there's an implied privacy about film, and someone proclaiming themselves in a room with only two people in it is just not that dramatic. "

And then, as with everyone's opinions, James changed his mind about being excited about the first one and how theatrical it was:

(6-04 Moonlight Rising) (asked if he'd change anything) I wouldn't do anything different because what it came to was… self-knowledge is about self-loathing. That's deep. That's just deep. I'm so proud of that scene. We filmed a different version and it sucked. Joss came in and he's like, "James, we don't know what to do with you this season. Your episode sucks, but I'm going to save it. Trust me." And he went and he rewrote it, and he came in and directed it, and he saved my ass. And it's now known as one of the best scenes, but in fact, it's saving us because we sucked."

I found mentions on Whedonesque of some magazine article in which it was discussed that Sarah thought the scene was originally "too theatrical" and Joss agreed upon review, but no direct quotes.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

anything but Buffy being ineffectual

Which is basically the majority of Season 6 that preceded it.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

Couldn't agree with that more. The fact that S6 is capped by yet another faux-epiphany makes me quite sad... Well, actually it fills me with dramatical RAGE!!1!, but I try to keep it in check. XD

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I never read that last quote. Or maybe I forgot it.

I do think that Beneath You should have been tweaked in other places. Overall, the episode could be better, but I actually do like the last scene (although at the time the original scipt leaked during spoilers, I wasn't all that bothered by the final scene in it either. It was actually other parts that I disliked the most.)

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

It just goes to show that people's opinions change overtime. James might be looking back and remembering how exhausted he was with the first scene and viewing it more critically as opposed to his original opinion of a theatrical Hamlet type of scene for Spike. Also during that time period, James was towing the party-line of Joss & Co. His opinions of his experiences on set as well as his overall opinion of Joss and even Spike has changed drastically in recent years. I wonder what his opinion about the two scenes would be now.